The Battle Between the Christian and Zzenn the Pagan: The Plagiarized Jesus
Revealing History's Greatest Religious Heist
In this article, I share a debate from a comment thread about my article exposing the so-called historical Jesus. I’m sharing this conversation to raise awareness of the lies propagated by the Christian religion.
Joseph the Christian:
Your argument that the supernatural events in the Bible are false is fair, but your broader claim is misleading in several places. If you’re saying the mythological Jesus didn’t exist, that’s fair. But if you’re saying the historical Jesus didn’t exist, that’s incorrect.
Joseph: (addressing Zzenn’s statement)
“The earliest Christian writings—the canonical gospels—were written between 70 to 100 years after Jesus allegedly lived.”
Misleading. Mark was written around 70 AD, roughly 37 years after Jesus’ death. We also have Paul’s letters, written as early as 15 years after his death.
Joseph: (addressing Zzenn’s statement)
“The question of whether a historical person named Jesus ever lived remains open among scholars.”
False. No credible scholar takes this seriously. Most “Jesus never existed” claims trace back to Richard Carrier, who is widely criticized for misrepresenting evidence and is not taken seriously by reputable historians. Jesus existed.
Joseph: (addressing Zzenn’s statement)
“Apologists often cite three names: Josephus, Tacitus, and Pliny the Younger. Yet these brief mentions were written decades after the events and remain heavily debated by scholars for their authenticity and clarity.”
Misleading. Among critical scholars, there’s broad agreement that these writers did, in fact, mention Jesus independently of the New Testament. Their references are brief, but they are genuine.
Zzenn the Pagan:
Zzenn:
I appreciate the reply. However, there’s no evidence that the made-up version of the Christian church existed. There’s more evidence that they ripped off the pagans and that Jesus was most likely from the earlier Grail traditions and the Druids. The Christian church ripped everything off from the pagans.
Even more damaging is that all the evidence is anecdotal. It’s all hearsay, which leads to the only rational conclusion: they made up the story to create a cult called Christianity. It doesn’t matter how many scholars state otherwise. The entire story is based on hearsay. That’s a fact.
Worse, about 600,000 residents lived in Judea during the time of Jesus, with a literacy rate of roughly 3%. No one spoke up about him except for three scholars a decade later, who could have been simply repeating the narrative of the Roman Church, since people were pretty much murdered if they didn’t buy the story.
A 3% literacy rate meant that around 18,000 people in an area where everyone knew about this so-called Jesus guy with his miracles, like raising people from the dead, were illiterate. The prophesied Messiah healing the sick and feeding the multitudes, etc., etc., etc.
Then, you have the Roman Empire that didn’t say a peep about him, and they were meticulous record keepers.
The most damaging aspect of the silly Jesus story, with its heavens, hells, talking donkeys, Noah’s ark, and Adam and Eve, is the part where, upon his death, a great earthquake occurred, and the saints rose from their graves and entered Jerusalem.
A literal zombie apocalypse!
No one said a thing, not even the 3% literate people of Judea, nor did the Roman Empire or anybody else say anything.
So the Christian's excuse about the great earthquake is that it wasn’t a literal event. Which is nonsense because if you accept Jesus and his resurrection, another magical story, then you’re just cherry-picking your interpretations. You conveniently claim that the zombie apocalypse and earthquake weren’t literal, but the resurrection was. It’s just more nonsense that the faithful spread to keep themselves under the trance of the church.
Joseph the Christian:
Joseph: (addressing Zzenn’s statement)
I disagree with pretty much all of that. This is just Richard Carrier manipulation with an accent of paganism. But instead of responding to each point (because I think you’ve made up your mind) explain to me WHY.
Why would a group of Jews make up this story about a crucified messiah? Why would they have him baptized by John? Why would they have him rejected in his hometown?
Where does James, the brother, fit into all of this? Is he made up too? Why? Why make the brother of the made-up messiah leader of the Jerusalem church? Is Paul lying that he knew him?
How did they pull it off? There were Jewish Christians, such as the Ebionites. Wouldn’t they have known there was no Jesus of Nazareth? Why is there no record of anyone claiming it was made up?
I’ll actually respond to one thing you said. Josephus was born only a few years after Jesus’s death. He was in Jerusalem. Surely he would have heard that there were these Christians who invented a fake Messiah, yet instead, he gives a brief write up about the man. There is no evidence he is using the New Testament at all. On the contrary. Why does he give a write up about James and John too? Are they made up by Christians too? If not, explain how BOTH, logically fit into this made up story.
Zzenn the Pagan (1st comment reply):
Point 1
Joseph: (addressing Zzenn’s statement)
Mark was written around 70 AD, roughly 37 years after Jesus’ death. We also have Paul’s letters, written as early as 15 years after his death.
Zzenn:
That means nothing. Zero. Zilch. That doesn’t prove a thing about the so-called historical Jesus. It adds more evidence that the story is anecdotal.
Point 2
Joseph: (addressing Zzenn’s statement)
“The question of whether a historical person named Jesus ever lived remains open among scholars.”
False. No credible scholar takes this seriously. Most “Jesus never existed” claims trace back to Richard Carrier, who is widely criticized for misrepresenting evidence and is not taken seriously by reputable historians. Jesus existed.
Zzenn:
That is an appeal to authority and a writer's opinion. Simply saying “Jesus existed" means nothing; it's like a person claiming “I am a cat.”
Point 3
Joseph: (addressing Zzenn’s statement)
“Apologists often cite three names: Josephus, Tacitus, and Pliny the Younger. Yet these brief mentions were written decades after the events and remain heavily debated by scholars for their authenticity and clarity.”
Misleading. Among critical scholars, there’s broad agreement that these writers did, in fact, mention Jesus independently of the New Testament. Their references are brief, but they are genuine.
Zzenn:
Again, you pretentiously act like you “know things” as if they are evidence, making claims as if whatever you state is magically true. You appeal to authorities as if their magical incantations are true. It’s all anecdotal evidence, which further proves the whole story was invented to create a cult aimed at controlling the world. That’s why Christianity is the largest religion in the world, while its followers play the victim (we are so persecuted).
Furthermore, it's absurd for three people to mention Jesus years after his supposed life. Using such a notion to boost your beliefs doesn’t help your case. You are indoctrinated, and that’s why the OBVIOUS facts about the 600,000 residents, the Roman Empire having no records, and the 3% literate not saying a word, along with zero archaeological evidence, go in one ear and out the other.
Your arguments have changed nothing. I have addressed every point effectively.
Zzenn the Pagan (2nd comment reply):
Point 1
Joseph:
I disagree with pretty much all of that. This is just Richard Carrier manipulation with an accent of paganism. But instead of responding to each point (because I think you’ve made up your mind) explain to me WHY.
Zzenn:
Your reference to this author means nothing.
Accusing me of manipulation is where things tend to go off track when discussing Christians and their beliefs, as accusations often start to fly.
Pagan manipulation? Your cult murdered Pagans and stole “our” sacred traditions.
Cease celebrating Christmas, Halloween, and Easter, and stop promoting your fake Jesus (who was more likely a pagan or druid that the Church plagiarized) as if Christians hold the moral high ground. All of this is false.
I am ready for the final threat of eternal torture in Hell before you end the conversation.
Point 2
Joseph:
Why would a group of Jews make up this story about a crucified messiah? Why would they have him baptized by John? Why would they have him rejected in his hometown?
Zzenn:
Why are religions created? Why do Muslims invent their stories? Why are humans storytelling animals who are prone to trance, delusion, and hypnosis? And why, throughout history, do power-hungry humans lie to the public and develop religions for cultural mind control and manipulation? You have it backward.
Point 3
Joseph:
Where does James, the brother, fit into all of this? Is he made up too? Why? Why make the brother of the made-up messiah leader of the Jerusalem church? Is Paul lying that he knew him?
Zzenn:
You're relying on hearsay. There’s no proof that any of this is true. Just because the church claims there was a Paul who said anything (if there was, he was a propagandist for the church) and a James or anyone else? Your Bible is full of magical stories like Noah’s giant animal zoo boat, talking donkeys, people rising from the dead, water coming out of rocks, Jonah living in the belly of a whale for 3 days, and more. Then there's the horrible violence of your demon god Jehovah, who commanded child genocide and created a torture chamber for billions of people who don’t buy into your cult, and they get blamed for choosing hell... ridiculous.
Point 4
Joseph:
How did they pull it off? There were Jewish Christians, such as the Ebionites. Wouldn’t they have known there was no Jesus of Nazareth? Why is there no record of anyone claiming it was made up?
Zzenn:
The only difference between your religion and Islam is an unseen person. Both religions grew and persisted with the same reliance on hearsay—no evidence other than a story to support their origins. Include in this the religious, spiritual, political, and government cults like North Korea, and the answer to your questions becomes clear.
Claiming there was a magical elephant that performed miracles in India centuries ago, despite no local or authoritative evidence, and the fact that people created a cult around this story, doesn’t make it true. It demonstrates that with enough power, authority, and the willingness to torture, commit genocide, and murder, one can evade accountability.
Point 5
Joseph:
I’ll actually respond to one thing you said. Josephus was born only a few years after Jesus’s death. He was in Jerusalem. Surely he would have heard that there were these Christians who invented a fake Messiah, yet instead, he gives a brief write up about the man. There is no evidence he is using the New Testament at all. On the contrary. Why does he give a write up about James and John too? Are they made up by Christians too? If not, explain how BOTH, logically fit into this made up story.
Zzenn:
Are you really trying to argue that one person against 600,000 gives your claims credibility? Don’t you see how your points are strengthening my argument?
Conclusion
This is a typical example showing how irrational the indoctrinated can be. Did you notice how hard it was for Joseph to see the obvious? You see, he has a lot at stake because his psycho-emotional experience with the “story” of Jesus makes him believe that the invisible Jesus is real. And yet, he doesn’t realize that he is suffering from an illusion created by his inner world.
What Christians need to learn is the following:
What Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell teach emphasizes understanding the language of the subjective, archetypes, and how emotions connect to beliefs.
They should explore the universal narrative of myth across history and grasp the relationship between their inner child and the Christ child.
The metaphorical theme of Jesus’ death and resurrection is also key.
Realize they are in a socially acceptable cult and should explore mind control, brainwashing, hypnosis, and how to deprogram from indoctrination.
Additionally, they need to deconstruct their beliefs, develop critical thinking skills, and recognize how Christian Apologetics can manipulate argumentation.
I hope this conversation was useful, and I look forward to your feedback on the comment thread.
—Zzenn
Read Zzenn’s Story: unSpirital: A Spiritual Journey
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Hi Zzenn, I DM'd you some comments about the Jesus article. Did you see it?